Hovind Prison Update
On Monday, a
new post
appeared on Kent Hovind’s weblog, describing life in jail. As you might expect, he plays the Christian persecution card. He also has a list of reasons God allowed him to be sent to jail. Oddly enough, neither “I’m guilty” nor “there are no gods” is on the list.
He also writes,
If the case is not reversed, I face anywhere from parole to 7 to 12 years.
This is a man who believes that the Earth is 6000 years old when in fact it’s 4.5 billion years old. So presumably that means that he’s looking at between 5.25 and 9 million years in prison.
So what you are saying is:
Who cares about taxes ….
He has been prosecuted because of his believes and that is why the only thing you are talking about is the age of the earth.
I also believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. When you go over to another side (after you die) you will also find out that Darvin was wrong!
People who believe in procecuting christians – I will personally buy you a ONE WAY ticket to Russia or China
Have fun in a communist country where you are also procecutted for “Tax Fraud” or other fauls accusations just to get rid of christians.
Oh, by the way, they also inprison anyone who has an opinion or any belief so you would also be in prison cause you sound like you have an opinion
Taxes? I don’t see any mention of taxes here, except in your comment, AF.
That is my point.
Abviously, you don’t even know what he was charged with
You are making a statement with out any knowledge.
But I’ll give it to you it is a “FREE” country
AF:
Well, yeah, he got in trouble for believing that he could get away with not paying taxes, and acting on that belief for years.
And I only mentioned his wacky ideas about the age of the earth because all the good snark has been said elsewhere.
You also write:
You may want to remove the beam from your eye before picking at motes in others’.
You may also want to look up the difference between “prosecute” and “persecute“.
No AF, what I see is you attempting to hijack a discussion thread by interjecting out of context information and making baseless assumptions about another person’s depth of knowledge. But please, don’t let facts stand in the way of a good rant. You have the opportunity to provide boundless comic relief. Come forth and make us happy! I will grant you that I don’t trust that Darvin bastard either. I lent him my hammer months ago and he now claims I never did.
I’m Australian and find Dr Hovind’s lectures very illuminating but I was bewildered by the allegations that he was evading personal tax, until I found out that you American citizens are victims of fraud on a large scale and he is aware of it.
you are paying road tax, sales tax, fuel tax, electricity tax, land tax, water tax in other words tax on everything, except at the moment -air you breathe tax.
The so called personal income tax which is really a corporate tax is illegal.
and has been ruled and commented on by judges in your supreme court, but your IRS does not want you to know this and furthermore when questioned about proof of the legality of the tax to individuals, the representatives of the IRS evaded answering the question, saying only that every loyal American has a duty to pay their taxes and even declaring that the supreme court is wrong.
Your federal reserve bank is not owned by the American government but by the banks who through intense lobbying, palm greasing and deceit took it over at the time of President Taft, who rued the day.
your personal tax is not used for anything constructive for your nation’s infrastructure but goes to pay the interest on the money the American government owes to the reserve bank when it borrowed its own money from them to do works.
Check it out for yourself folk.
Eddy:
If, as you seem to believe, Hovind is innocent (of non-payment of payroll tax, not personal income tax, BTW), then perhaps you can explain why he didn’t offer a defense in court, even though he had witnesses lined up.
Also, you provide no evidence for your claims, just assertions. So color me unconvinced.
Arensb I must apologise in that I am not very familiar with Hovinds case as I only know about it through internet comments but I will attempt to answer with evidence on my claims on the tax scam.
The changes in your current monetary system began in 1913 three pieces of legislation were put in place. Prior to that you had no “income tax”, no Federal Reserve, no deficit, and no inflation in your country. Not to mention having a healthy and thriving economy up until that time. (The only exceptions have been deficits during war time, such as the civil war) In fact your government actually had a surplus in the treasury when the first “income tax” was passed in 1894, later to be struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. The bill was the “Wilson Tariff Act” and the subsequent case was Pollock v. Farmer’s Loan & Trust Co., 157 US 429 [1895].
if you were to apply the tax laws as they are actually written (i.e. that the vast majority of citizens that work in one of the 50 states are not liable for the “1040” income tax) how would this country have the funds to operate? Well, you must first understand and ask how America and your government operated before 1913 when there was no income tax or Federal Reserve.
To ask how your country will function without the tax only indicates how far you have bought into the lie that an income tax is essential to the operation of your government.
The very chairman of the Federal Reserve admitted as far back as 1946 that an income tax was not needed or used to fund the government’s expenses but rather taxes were needed only to keep inflation in check because of the fiat currency you were now under and have operated under since 1913.
This article was first published in the January, 1946, issue of a periodical named American Affairs.
TAXES FOR REVENUE ARE OBSOLETE by Beardsley Ruml, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York
The very reason your country is in the economic mess you are in is because of the money system you are currently under and the subsequent misapplication of law regarding the income tax. In other words, it is in fact the very opposite of what you have been told all your lives. If the law was being properly applied (i.e. limited taxes as laid out in the Constitution), and you had real money, you would be exactly where we were before bad legislation was put into play in 1913. i.e. NO INFLATION AND NO FEDERAL DEFICIT and a thriving economy!
You may be thinking that inflation is not that bad. Howeverinflation does not have to exist at all. people used to think inflation was a product of greed and people wanting more and more for their products or services. But in fact inflation comes from “money” being created out of nothing and backed by nothing and then pumped into our economy, thereby reducing the purchasing power of the money already in circulation. Therefore what shows up as increasing prices is in fact a decreasing or a delusion of the “dollars” currently in circulation.
Have you ever wondered why the dollar keeps dropping in value against other currencies? Did you know that the federal reserve has printed more “money”, aka federal reserve notes, in the last year then all the “stagflation” years of the Carter administration. inflation then was running close to 20% coupled with no economic growth at that time. Do you think there might be a connection between the printing of money and the dropping of the dollars value? When you start to understand how things work, you will realize it isn’t inflation of prices we experience but the devaluation of the dollar.
in the normal course of economic developments prices usually go down. As providers become more proficient in producing goods and services, coupled with increasing competition and increasing supply, prices actually drop. The current high tech industry is a perfect example of how things normally work. Who hasn’t bought a computer years ago that cost more then a machine far more powerful today. The reason it is so apparent in the high tech industry and not in other industries is that the accelerated development of the tech industry and its products over against most others has outpaced increasing prices due to printing of the bogus currency you currently operate under.
Thomas Jefferson was concise and dead on in his early warning to the American nation, “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” Once you understand your monetary system as it really is, you will see just how prophetic Jefferson’s words were.
(sourced from Tax Truth 4 U
The US Central Bank is a banking system in which a single bank has a monopoly on the issue of currency. It exists as a result of government favours which is the key to its power. Such a bank has a direct inflationary effect.
Pressure for a US Central Bank was building up around the turn of the 19th century. In 1908, President Theodore Roosevelt, responding to public concern over the continuing instability of the US monetary system and to lobbying by influential bankers, set up the National Monetary Commission to report on the establishment of a central bank to control the issue of currency, determine interest rates and related matters crucial to economic policy.
The leading bankers of the day supported the concept of a central bank, but they had their own agenda – a central bank with the power of a government bank, financed and owned by private interests under private control. Senator Nelson Aldrich, a leading banker, was appointed chairman of the Commission which duly recommended a central bank along the lines favoured by his accomplices on the Commission.
As a ‘central bank’ was not popular at the time, the term was dropped in favour of Federal Reserve, but a central bank it was to be. Capital was subscribed by a chain of new regional Federal Reserve Banks whose capital was subscribed to by private banks controlled by the same bankers who promoted the formation of a central bank.
The Federal Reserve, established in 1913, was made to look respectable by placing it under the control of a Board appointed by the President. The President appointed the Chairman to a 14 year term – a device to ensure his political independence. In effect, of course, the Fed was owned by the commercial banks that owned the shares. These were the five main New York banks. Also influential was the Bank of England whose shareholders owned the majority of the stock of the New York banks.
Accordingly, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York sets interest rates and directs market operations. It controls the daily supply and price of money throughout the US. Its stockholders are the real directors of the entire system and include the wealthy financiers who have controlled the US and world political and economic destinies since 1914.
(Sourced from Converge a New Zealand’s online community network).
Eddy:
In my country, there’s a law that says,
followed by some sensible exceptions, e.g., people whose gross income is less than the exemption amount.
Section 6011(a) says that returns and statements have to be done in accordance with rules prescribed by the Secretary of the Treasury.
How do you interpret this to mean that most Americans don’t need to pay income tax? And anyway, you didn’t answer my first question: if Hovind is innocent, and the law doesn’t require him to pay payroll tax, then why didn’t he mount a defense?
in answer to your first question, maybe Dr. Hovind knows that any defense he mounts will be brushed away seeing as he has already been aquited by three grand juries. If that wasn’t enough to let him off the hook, then there’s foul play afoot.
I dont know why you guys are so much against Hovind when he is saying the truth about you and your life he
was not put in to jail because of not paying tax!
He was put there because he was in someones way and that person did not like it!
USA is not a democratic country anymore as you could see elections and all that democratic talk is made so the people would think they are choosing the president and stuff… but for reals the president has been chosen by the higher people!
So i dont think hovind could of done anything anyway because someone with more power wanted to get rid of his speeches and him!
Roman:
Wow, paranoid much?
And if anyone wanted to silence Hovind, it was probably the creationists or mainstream Christians, for making them look like gullible fools.
Hey Andrew, please check your website referrer log and figure out who is linking here to send all of the loonies this way. I’m interested.
Hey arensb, I’m praying for you buddy! the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ has always been rejected by scoffers, and that may be you. You need to believe that what he did for you is real, and accept him as you personal saviour, if for no other reason, because God’s judgement hangs over your head as long as you don’t. The bible says that God COMMANDS sinner everywhere to repent. Hope you consider it!
jimmy:
Sure thing, as soon as someone presents some credible evidence. I’ve looked, but by and large it seems people just quote the Bible, as if that proved anything.
Ah. Threats.
Look, if I thought Yahweh existed, and was the kind of sadistic extortionist that you portray him as, sure, I’d worship him; I’m no hero. But I certainly can’t love anyone who’d torture someone forever for a finite crime, especially when that crime is not believing in him without reason to do so.
Yes, I’m sure it does. But is there any reason to take it more seriously than the Koran, the Kalevala, or the Silmarillion?
“Sure thing, as soon as someone presents some credible evidence. I’ve looked, but by and large it seems people just quote the Bible, as if that proved anything.”
Maybe you won’t accept the bible as credible evidence, and you think it’s just a book, but have you ever heard of Dr. Simon Greenleaf? He was one of the founders of Harvard, and is an authority on legal matters. As such, he conducted a legal examination of the bible with the intent of proving that it was not a credible source of evidence. However, he concluded this study by announcing that the bible cannot be proved false by all legal standards, while at least four eyewitness accounts exist of all that took place in the New Testament. These four witnesses were examined according to the modern standards of the time for defining a credible witness, and each of them meet or exceed these standards.
So, according to law, what you stated above is false.
“Ah. Threats.
Look, if I thought Yahweh existed, and was the kind of sadistic extortionist that you portray him as, sure, I’d worship him; I’m no hero. But I certainly can’t love anyone who’d torture someone forever for a finite crime, especially when that crime is not believing in him without reason to do so.”
Above, you mention that you don’t believe that “Yahweh” exists, but then you state that you can’t love him, and state some of his attributes.
In spite of this seeming contradiction, may I ask WHY you don’t believe that God, or “Yahweh”, exists?
“Yes, I’m sure it does. But is there any reason to take it more seriously than the Koran, the Kalevala, or the Silmarillion?”
There is no reason at all for the atheist. But for those who can say, I wasn’t there when Jesus died, and I wasn’t there to see him rise, but I WAS there when he saved my soul, there is overwhelming reason. On top of that, the above testimony of Dr. Greenleaf states a reason to at least accept the historical accuracy presented in God’s Holy Word.
My prayers for you continue.
jimmy:
By “is”, I assume you mean “was”. Greenleaf died before the US Civil War and before the publication of Origin of the Species. A lot has changed since his time.
Oh? Where are these eyewitness accounts hidden?
Where, for instance, are the four eyewitness accounts of Herod’s slaughter of Bethlehem’s babies?
We do not have the originals of the four gospels in the Bible. What we have is copies of copies of something that claims to be an account of what happened.
You’re talking about Testimony of the Evangelists, right? I haven’t read all of it yet, but from skimming it, it looks as though he starts by assuming that there is a god, that that god is Jehovah, that Noah’s flood actually happened, that Christianity can’t possibly be based on a flawed premise, etc. In short, he assumes his conclusion.
It’s not a contradiction: I’m quite capable of imagining being in a different situation, and what I’d do if circumstances were different. Surely you’re not so dense as to be incapable of understanding that, are you?
I also note that you don’t address the fact that your god is a sadistic extortionist. Does that mean that you concede the point?
Simply, there’s no evidence for any gods, or none that isn’t more easily explained as a statistical artifact or psychological phenomenon. See also my message to creationists.
Ah, so the Bible is only believable if you already believe in Jesus and souls? As they say, seeing is believing: if you don’t believe it, you won’t see it.
Will they do any good?
arensb,
“By “is”, I assume you mean “was”. Greenleaf died before the US Civil War and before the publication of Origin of the Species. A lot has changed since his time.”
I meant “is” when I said it. Obviously, you don’t descredit Darwin’s theories just because he is dead now. It is ludecrous to assume that this aproach should be taken to any other man’s writings.
“Oh? Where are these eyewitness accounts hidden?
Where, for instance, are the four eyewitness accounts of Herod’s slaughter of Bethlehem’s babies?
We do not have the originals of the four gospels in the Bible. What we have is copies of copies of something that claims to be an account of what happened.”
These four accounts are “hidden” in the middle of the Bible. They are Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. I’m afraid that maybe you haven’t done any research into the translation of the bible from the Greek and Hebrew into english. I don’t have the time to go into great detail, but this was a meticulously intricate process. A committee of 49 translators, trained in the respective languages all of their lives, worked for many years on this project. After this was done, a committee of seven of the best scholars reviewed it individually. The care taken in translating this book may be brushed aside by certain men claiming to be atheists, but God also promised that he would preserve it.
“It’s not a contradiction: I’m quite capable of imagining being in a different situation, and what I’d do if circumstances were different. Surely you’re not so dense as to be incapable of understanding that, are you?
“I also note that you don’t address the fact that your god is a sadistic extortionist. Does that mean that you concede the point?”
I understand what you’re saying, and beg your forgiveness for the misunderstanding. I didn’t know that you were using your imagination, because I thought atheists were down-to-earth, “fact” type of guys.
About your title for our almighty creator, I don’t fight God’s battles. He’ll settle it with you on judgement day.
“Simply, there’s no evidence for any gods, or none that isn’t more easily explained as a statistical artifact or psychological phenomenon. See also my message to creationists.”
You can rationalize all day,and I’m not going to argue this point with you, because you were not born believing that there is no God. You came to this conclusion at some point, the circumstances of which I do not know. However, at some point, you had the gospel presented to you, and you decided to reject Jesus Christ, and try to satisfy your concience with the pretended belief that God does not exist. Inside, you do not have peace. There is only one source from which you can obtain it, and you have rejected the command to accept and believe this.
I read your message to creationists, and I can respect your search for truth, but you know as well as I do, that this cannot be found in the religion of evolution, although, granted, you have probably convinced yourself that this is not the case.
“Ah, so the Bible is only believable if you already believe in Jesus and souls? As they say, seeing is believing: if you don’t believe it, you won’t see it.”
Yes, the Bible is believable to all men, since man naturally believes in God and souls, but certain men deny this reality.
And, finally, Yes my prayers will do good. Because you have had the gospel presented to you, and inside you know that you need Jesus Christ’s blood as a barrier between you and God’s wrath. For this reason, I believe that you will someday realize that God is real, whether in this life or the next, and until then, I will continue to pray for you.
jimmy:
You do know that these “eyewitness” accounts were written decades or centuries after the events they describe are alleged to have happened, that there is no independent corroboration of these events (e.g., Roman reports of a troublemaker raising the dead and healing the sick in Judea, which you think someone would have noticed), and that these accounts have undergone a lot of translation, retranslation, editing, and redaction, right? For instance, the Johannine Comma, which provides the only scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, was pretty much invented from whole cloth. You may want to read Bible scholar Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus at some point.
I’m not rationalizing. I’m just pointing out that there is no solid evidence for any gods.
To get an idea of what I’m talking about, ask yourself what it would take to convince you that Thor, or Mithra, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster really exist, then ask yourself whether any comparable evidence exists for Yahweh or Jesus.
This is true. However, it is also true that no one, including me, is born believing that there is a god or gods. This is something that people learn, usually from their parents.
Actually, I like atheism. I like not being afraid. I wish I could show you the world through my eyes.
So what you’re saying is that the only reason to believe in Jesus is a book filled with absurdities, contradictions, and atrocities, not supported by any other tangible evidence, and that if I don’t believe it, somehow I’m wrong for doing so?
In short, why should I believe anything simply because it says so in a book?
Um… there is no “religion of evolution”, any more than there is a religion of gravity. It appears that you don’t know what the theory of evolution is (not surprising, if all your information comes from Hovind). I suggest that you visit http://evolution.berkeley.edu/ and learn.
Eh? What? I thought Jesus was God.
And no, I know no such thing. The whole redemption thing doesn’t make any sense, except as a story.
arensb,
I’m not going to touch on the first point because it’s a huge arguement, but I’m afraid that your info. is mistaken. If you’ll visit my blogsite at hovindtrials.blogspot.com I’ll try to get exact dates and more evidence on this subject posted.
“I’m not rationalizing. I’m just pointing out that there is no solid evidence for any gods.
To get an idea of what I’m talking about, ask yourself what it would take to convince you that Thor, or Mithra, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster really exist, then ask yourself whether any comparable evidence exists for Yahweh or Jesus.”
Well, to honestly think about it, If I was given legaly tested, historicaly accurate, evidence, and if thousands of eyewitnesses attested to it, and if I had experienced it myself, I would be a fool not to believe in the reality of it.
You know, come to think of it, the bible had something to say about you. Yes, it was written specifically for you! it says, “the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God…”
“This is true. However, it is also true that no one, including me, is born believing that there is a god or gods. This is something that people learn, usually from their parents.”
I respectfully ask you to take a look at nature around you and describe to me how all of the universe could have just “happened”. If you can accurately explain this one fact to me, I will be satisfied. Nature teaches that there is a God. Where your parents atheists? (more on this later)
“Actually, I like atheism. I like not being afraid. I wish I could show you the world through my eyes.”
Maybe right now you have snowed yourself into believing that you enjoy atheism, but remember the words of karl marx, “How purposeless and empty life is, but how desired!”
You can have real joy and peace you know, you’ve just go to accept it.
“So what you’re saying is that the only reason to believe in Jesus is a book filled with absurdities, contradictions, and atrocities, not supported by any other tangible evidence, and that if I don’t believe it, somehow I’m wrong for doing so?
In short, why should I believe anything simply because it says so in a book?”
I would ask you to step back for a moment and show me one contradiction or atrocity in the bible. In case you didn’t notice, you did not support that statement with any tangible evidence.
“Um… there is no “religion of evolution”, any more than there is a religion of gravity. It appears that you don’t know what the theory of evolution is (not surprising, if all your information comes from Hovind). I suggest that you visit http://evolution.berkeley.edu/ and learn.”
I have studied evolution from the perspective of the oppostion, and have reached the conclusion that it is nothing more than a scam based upon proven lies. This is nothing more than a religion.
Take, for instance, this exerpt from “the lie”;
It does not take much effort to demonstrate that evolution is not science but religion. Science, of course, involved observation, using one or more of our five senses (taste, sight, smell, hearing, touch) to gain knowledge about the world and to be able to repeat the observations. Naturally, one can only observe what exists in the present. It is an easy task to understand that no scientist was present over the suggested millions of years to witness the supposed evolutionary progression of life form the simple to the complex. No living scientists was there to observe the first life forming in some primeval sea. No living scientist was there to observe the Big Bang that is supposed to have occurred 10 or 20 billion years ago, nor the supposed formation of the earth 4.5 billion years ago (or even 10,000 years ago!). No scientists was there–no human witness was there to see these events occurring. They certainly cannot be repeated today.
“Eh? What? I thought Jesus was God.
And no, I know no such thing. The whole redemption thing doesn’t make any sense, except as a story.”
Well, first, you don’t believe in God, so I don’t know how you think Jesus is God, but anyway, they are both members of the trinity. Also, the bible says that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
I appreciate the time that you’ve taken to discuss this subject.
jimmy:
This discussion has gone sufficiently off-topic that I’ve created a separate thread for it.
The FACT is that, the age of the earth being 4.5 BILLION years old is not fact. Gravity FACT, 2+2=4 FACT, 4.5 Billion year old earth NOT FACT only a speculation.
MetalBiff:
Presumably you’re a YEC and think that the Earth is roughly 10,000 years old. So what you are saying is that every modern geologist is wrong, terribly, massively wrong, by five orders of magnitude, in fact. You’re saying that the entire community of geologists is as wrong as a guy who thinks that a football field is long enough to stretch all the way around the equator and then some.
Given this, why do you suppose that oil companies, which care only about what works, employ mainstream geologists to find likely sources of oil, rather than YECs?
Every Modern Geologist? I doubt that.
MetalBiff:
Doubt is good. Doubt makes us question our assumptions and seek answers.
Now, can you name a single geologist currently working in geology who thinks the Earth is merely thousands of years old? Or when you say “I doubt that”, are you really saying “I’m not going to believe that because I don’t want it to be true”?
And does that geologist have actual scientific reasons for his beliefs, and is he widely regarded as a kook by his peers?
If Hovind is sentenced, he will become a “Martyr” for tax relief.
The government wants half or more (when figuring alltaxed items) of the peoples income, while God only asked for 10% (and that was to help the poor).
Hovind’s efforts were purely ministerial, so he should not be taxed.
He was targeted for what he says more than the tax issue. Look at the corporations that make millions and don’t pay a dime. Why don’t the tax men go after the CEO that get the million dollar bonuses — are they interpreting the tax code perfectly.
Either way, this event will make him more popular.
Have any of you ever heard of Daniel in the lions den? I am sure that if Dr.Hovind was a CEO of say, Apple, and not being a person that discredited all of the so called facts and scientific “evidence” of prestigeous scientists, he would never be in Jail right now. They might just slap his hand for putting it in the cookie jar, but that would be it.
Before you dismiss what Dr.Hovind teaches, or reteaches I might say, why dont you go to his website and click on downloads. Go ahead and just watch the first free video and see for yourself. Anyone can discredit anyone on the internet very easily, but if you actually have brains you might think about looking into it yourself.
Website: http://www.drdino.com
Also…about the age of the Earth. How is there actually proof of how old the earth is? How do we know for sure? The scientific “facts” that are published, and widely taught today would be absurd 50 years ago, and called wrong, even though we believe them to be right. Science is always changing and is mostly just speculation that works with whats at hand….until we bring in a new variable that doesnt match the equation, or breaks it. Set rules are always broken, and fact turns to fiction all the time.
Did you know that on the same dinosaur, using even the best technology of carbon dating, you can take multiple samples and get data back that varies from each other so much. It really shows the weakness of using this technology to invent “facts”.
All I am really asking everyone is to do, is to not be like your cyber-neighbor, dont thrive off of the stupidity of doing bandwagon stunts. Actually use your brains and do research into both sides of the story before you make your mind up, otherwise you would be like a blind person swearing he saw an alien.
Tyler:
You misunderstand: I’m not dismissing Hovind’s claims because I don’t know what they are. I’m dismissing them because I am familiar with them. I’ve listened to his entire seminar several times, and even gone to see his show in person. His show is entertaining, but as science, it’s crap from end to end, and even has a negative educational content.
Have you considered, say, trying to find out? If you went down to the library, you might learn something. The short answer is, mainly various types of radiometric dating. And before you complain about radiometric dating techniques being invalid due to assumptions, read up about techniques like isochrons and concordia-discordia, and see whether geologists might already know about these assumptions and how to deal with them.
Which scientific facts believed today would be thought absurd in 1956? Mechanics, electricity, relativity, quantum physics, evolution, etc. were already well established by then.
First of all, carbon dating only works on objects up to about 30,000 years old, so it doesn’t work with dinosaurs.
Secondly, quite frankly, I don’t believe you. I think you’re mangling Hovind’s claim about dating different parts of a mammoth and obtaining different results, which in turn is also wrong. But if you think you’re right, please provide a citation of the original report(s), so that it can be checked.
arensb makes a very good point. I don’t understand why so many people directly quote Kent Hovind (who plagerizes his ideas) without references at least one other source.
Hi Metalbef!
Just to name a few gologist who believe in an earth that is only some thousand years old I give you some names:
Tas Walker
Andrew A. Snelling
John Mackay
John D. Morris
Check em´ out. They know what they are talking about:-)
Stian:
Do you have any references to any papers where these people explain what in geology, exactly, leads them to the conclusion that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?
Hey arensb! We’re praying for you. Any old time you want to prove that the world is over 10,000 years, give me and Dr. Kent Hovind a nudge. By the way, His trial is tomorrow morning at 9:00 A.M., I hope you all above this are hoping he’ll get acquitted so he can show you some more truth. God Bless Dr. and Mrs. Hovind!!!!!
Joanne:
Tell you what: you pray for me, and I’ll think for you.
Tell you what: why don’t you read an actual geology textbook, such as G. Brent Dalrymple’s The Age of the Earth, and if you still think that every geologist on the face of the earth is hopelessly wrong about his own field, then come back and we’ll talk about it.
But right now, if you believe the earth is 10,000 years old or less, then that means that you don’t know any geology (in fact, you probably know precious little science, and have no critical thinking skills to speak of), and are getting all of your information from creationists who know as little as you do, or are lying to you.
can anybody tell me how Kent Hovind and his wife went?
Also what is happening to america is it turning Fascist what’s that I hear about hearsay evidence and search without warrant?
where is your bill of rights gone to? replaced by Patriot act 2?
what’s happening guys? I think the same thing is happening in Australia and the rest of the world.
In Europe all the EU nation states are having their laws replaced by the french system developed after their revolution
Guilty until proven innocent, trial without jury, similar laws that you are getting,
In Aussie, the same is happening but in a more subtle way, it is being done by stealth.
I doubt if thinking for me will do any good. The Age of the Earth was written by a man just like you. I try not to take too many men at their word as all of us are sinners and no one is perfect. But God is and that is why I believe the Bible. There are no mistakes in it since God is perfect. Kent Hovinds theories match up with the Bible and that is why I believe him. When he goes wrong, I’ll stop. I’ll take a look at the age of the earth and talk to you more tonight.
Howdy arensb! I started to read the Age of the Earth but some things threw me quite off for a minute. That 4.45 BILLIONBILLIONBILLION years is really quite interesting. Is that how long it took for us to evolve from “pools of matter” to what we are today? I find it hard to believe that the little honeybee for instance came from a “pool of matter” And take you for instance, I find it verrry hard to believe that you came from a “pool of matter” Such complex people as yourself must have come from more than the “pool of matter” You wouldn’t consider the other side of the story would you? Genesis 1:1 KJV Bible says “In the beginning God” Does yours say “In the beginning “pool of matter” I was just wondering.
Joanne:
It is, isn’t it?
I’ll confess that I haven’t read Dalrymple, although several people have recommended it. To be honest, I wasn’t expecting you to actually look it up: in my experience, very few creationists have any interest in learning what scientists actually have to say. I suppose I should run down to the library and borrow Age of the Earth. Maybe we can read it together.
As for the 4.5 billion year thing, allow me to share something I once worked out: go look at your Bible, and think of it as a record of 4000 years of history. Mine is about 750 pages long, which means that it would have to cram a little over 5 years onto each page: 9/11, the Lord of the Rings movies, Enron, the invasion of Afghanistan, WorldCom, the Beltway sniper, the invasion of Iraq, the Human Genome Project, Martha Stewart, the California recall and election, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, the death of Ronald Reagan, the reelection of George Bush, the Indian Ocean tsunami, Terri Schiavo, the election of the new pope, Charles and Camilla’s wedding, Deep Impact, the 7/7 attacks in London, hurricane Katrina, and the White Sox World Series win would all have to fit on one page. Just to give you an idea of how dense that is.
Now, my Bible is 5 1/4″ wide. If one Bible represents 4000 years, how many of them would you have to lay side by side to get 6,000,000 years, which is roughly when the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees lived? I don’t know the exact number, but if you started laying them at the corner by the White House, they’d extend more than a block.
What about 4.5 billion years, the age of the Earth? Again, if you started laying out Bibles by the White House, the last one would be a stone’s throw away from the West Virginia border (and that’s following roads in the mountains, by the way).
What about 13.7 billion years, the age of the universe? Starting at the White House and following roads, you’d
almost make it to Ohio.
And remember, every single one of those Bibles represents 4000 years. That’s an awful lot of time for things to happen in. Does it make your head hurt a little? I know it does mine.
As I said above, I haven’t read Dalrymple’s book. But I bet it includes a lengthy list of references, as well as footnotes and/or endnotes. So if you ever think, “Wait a second, that can’t be right. How does he know that?” there should be a footnote saying where he got his information. That should be either a research paper, or another book that references the original research paper. So no, you don’t have to take his word for anything: if you’re curious or have doubts, you should be able to track down every bit of information to its source.
No, if I remember correctly, life started somewhere around 3.5 billion years ago (somewhere around Front Royal, VA, I think), after the earth cooled off a bit. Most likely, it wasn’t life as you or I would recognize it, but rather a bunch of molecules in a sea or pond somewhere. But with an interesting property: they could accelerate chemical reactions that (by some circuitous route) wound up making more of themselves, if conditions were just right.
And even so, it took an awfully long time for things to get really interesting. If I remember correctly, multicellular life didn’t appear until about 1 billion years ago (somewhere around Fairfax, I think).
And yet, that’s what the data shows. Remember that it took 6 million years (a bit over a city block, on the first map, above) to get from a population of hairy apes who live in tribes in trees to a population of less-hairy apes who live in communities on the ground, stand erect, and have big brains. So how much more can happen in two city blocks, or a mile, or ten, or fifty?
Except that that doesn’t answer anything; it just gives ignorance a name. If you say that humans are too complex to have arisen by natural means, and could only have been designed by an even more complex being, namely God, then it must follow that God is too compex to have arisen naturally, and must have been designed by an even more complex being. So who created God? And who created God’s designer? And so on, and so forth.
And besides, how do you know that the events in Genesis are true? What independent confirmation is there for them, outside of the Bible?
Wait a minute! You mean you recommended a book to me that you haven’t read yourself??????? Please don’t do that again or I’m afraid I will not take the time or the trouble to do so. I recommended reading the Bible to you (something I try to do every day) did you take a look? As for the earth being somewhere around…. 3.5 billion years ago ….. I think…. life started somewhere around….. a bunch of molecules somewhere…. in a pond…. awfully long time…… if I remember……. WOW!! Would you mind being a little more specific about how life started? I’ll try to lay it all out for you at the bottom of this. “And yet, that’s what the data shows” uh… what data? You also said, “a bunch of molecules in a sea or pond somewhere.” Isn’t that a “pool of matter” I guess you believe “In the beginning a bunch of molecules.”
As for God, He has always been. You either believe it or you don’t. It’s much easier for me to believe that God who is All Powerful, Omnipotent, knows All things, Sees all things could create humans like ourselves than it is for me to believe about 3.5 billion years ago… i think.. some spinning stuff finally slowed down and became a “bunch of molecules”, and after a couple more years.. if I remember…….. here we are. Also, the footnotes at the bottom of the page of the book “Age of the Earth” were also written by a man who is sinful, just like us.
(The way I came up with these dates is adding all the dates in the Bible together in order)
I do not wish to be disrespectful but you must not think very much of yourself if you believe that you came from spinning molecules-pond stuff-hairy apes-and now you. Each individual was created special by God. As for independent confirmation, I’ll send you some stuff tommorrow on that.
Sincerely yours in prayer,
Ignorance
Joanne:
Yeah, sorry about that, but you did make a comment about the age of the earth, and Dalrymple’s book was recommended by several people I trust as being a very good exposition of what we know in this area and how we know it.
I’ve started several times (and read the Pentateuch at least four times), but never managed to get further than Joshua. That, and scattered reading throughout: I’ve read big chunks of the Gospels, Acts, Revelation, some of Paul’s letters, and assorted bits here and there.
I’d love to, but unfortunately I can’t: no one knows. A bunch of people are working on figuring it out, and there are a lot of clues and hypotheses, but no well-established theories, or consensus among the people working in this area.
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few things:
There are no fossils of multicellular beings older than, I think, about a billion years ago. Everything older than that is unicellular.
There are remains of bacterial mats in rocks several billion years old. The oldest traces of life seem to be about 3.5 billion years old.
Ancient rocks on Earth (and now the moon and Mars), as well as meteorites and comets, give us lots of information on what the early solar system and Earth were like.
Things like the banded iron formations show that the amount of oxygen in Earth’s early atmosphere went up and down several times, most likely as a result of early life forms expelling oxygen as a waste product, then being mostly killed off by it, then rising in numbers again when the oxygen levels had gone down.
Experiments show that in a variety of environments hypothesized for early Earth, simple organic molecules such as amino acids and strands of RNA can form naturally.
It’s also known that certain strands of RNA (even quite short ones) can act as catalysts. These ribozymes accelerate certain chemical reactions, including reactions that affect other strands of RNA.
These are all pieces of the puzzle, and there a lot more, but no one’s put them together into a coherent whole yet. There’s a recent book out, Genesis: the Scientific Quest for Life’s Origins by Robert Hazen, that’s on my “to read real soon” list, that talks about this.
Sure. What of it?
Okay, but you haven’t answered the question: who designed God?
Well, sure. However, the universe doesn’t care what you or I find easy to believe. Is there any actual data to support your claim?
Oh, come on! Now you’re just being gratuitously nitpicky. Sure, Dalrymple’s as fallible as the next person, and there are probably mistakes in his footnotes (to say nothing of the rest of the book). But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a good book, on the whole. Dictionaries are compiled by ordinary people, too. So are newspapers. Yes, mistakes creep in, sometimes quite serious ones, but they’re still usually pretty reliable sources of information.
So why is there no trace of any of this ever having occurred?
What? Where on earth did you get such a notion? Why would my self-esteem have anything to do with the origin of life?
Is there any proofe that the earth is 4.7 bilion years old? Absofuckinglutely not. So shut the fuck up. The text books are full of lies because those cock sucking scientists can’t present any REAL prove.
Thanks for replyin arensb. I appreciate you taking the time to try to get me straight on how life started. Except some of your information was quite confusing!
None of this sounds vague, or does it????
I will try to answer your questions in the order given. You asked “What of it?” (pools of matter) The “pools of matter had to be created by something or Someone, it didn’t just come up by itself. You cannot create something out of nothing. Where’d the something come from??
Your second question “Who designed God” He has always been. You either believe it or you don’t. I wasn’t there when God created the world; but I believe it because that’s what God says. You weren’t there when the “pools of matter was spinning”; you just believe it because that’s what someone told you or you read from a book. Right now, you believe that a pool of matter started spinning, it slowed down, here’s our world, man found woman, and here we are today!
Quoting your third question, “Why would my self esteem have anything to do with the origin of life?” It has a lot to do with it!!!!! Ask yourself these three questions: Who are you? Why are you here? What happens when you die? If evolution is true: You are a particle of “pools of matter” You are here for no reason, and therefore have no purpose. When you die, you’ll probably lie in a coffin until your body disintegrates into worms or dirt. If creation and God are true: God created you in His image so that you might enjoy life to its fullest. God made you for a special purpose, to glorify Him and show others to do the same. When you die, He has prepared a place for you in Heaven if you accept Him and He has also prepared a place where you will spend the rest of eternity burning in hell if you do not accept Him as God and your Savior.
I know that’s a lot to throw at someone who doesn’t believe God exists so I’ll try to lay off for a minute.
The first law of thermodynamics comes down to –matter cannot be created or destroyed. This means that somebody or the universe had to make itself! The word “universe” comes from two words. “uni means single. “verse” means a spoken sentence. So the word “universe” is a single spoken sentence. Genesis 1:3a says, “And God said, Let there be…” That’s all it took- a single spoken sentence!
The second law of thermodynamics boils down to –everything tends to disorder. So this means that things are not getting better, but worse. How could a bunch of chemicals (pools of matter) make us if the “pools of matter are tending to disorder???? Are we from disorder? Some evolutionist believe that the “pools of matter” created us by the sun’s energy. Yet, the sun detsroys or breaks down everything, (your house, your driveway, your clothes, ect.) except one thing-Chlorophyll is the only thing that the sun helps.
I found some things about the age of the earth. First of all, the number of people on the earth. I believe that in 4,400 B.C. there was a flood and God saved only eight people. In a few thousand years, they could easily multiply and have a few thousand people today. (The population at the time of the flood-8, At the time of Christ-.25 billion, In the 1800’s-1 billion, In the year 2,000-6 billion. As of right now all of us could easily fit into the city of Jacksonville, FL (25 billion sq. feet)(we could each have 4 sq.feet apiece) If the world is 3.5 billion years old as you say, there would be 150,000 people per sq. in that would try to fit (squish) into the city of Jacksonville, FL.
If the “pools of matter” were spinning and then slowed down, to make our solar system, earth, people, ect. to spin, everything that you are spinning has to go the same direction that you are spinning. So if the “pools of matter” finally slowed down to where our solar system could be formed, why are two of our planets spinning backwards????? And why do 6 moons in or solar system spin backwards??? Scientists say that some of the planets in our solar system are cooling off. If the “pools of matter” stopped spinning several billion years ago, why are some of the planets still hot. Also, scientist have observed that Saturn is losing its rings. If the world was several billion years old, why hasn’t Saturn lost all its rings yet???
When scientists first landed on the moon, they had made provision for the “dust on the moon” They believed that there would be several feet of dust. When they stepped out of the ship, they found only about ½ inch of dust on the moon. When they returned, they measured the dust again and calculated that the moon gathers about 1 in. of dust every 10,000 years. Hmm… let’s see, ½ inch of dust that would make the earth’s moon about 5,000 years old-take or give a few years. Also scientist have observed that the moon is moving away from the earth a little bit every year. This means that the moon used to be closer to the earth. Since the moon affects our tides, If the earth was 3.5 billion years old, the water would be so high on earth that it would drown us twice a day.
Scientist have also discovered that comets have a life expectancy of 10,000 years. (flying around in space kind of disintegrates them) therefore, why do we still have comets????
Scientist say that it takes at least 100,000 years for a red star to evolve to a white dwarf. The star “Sirius” was first observed in 2,000 B.C. to be a red star by Egyptians. In 50 B.C. it still was a red star (according to Cicero) In 150 A.D., the star :Sirius was observed to now be a white dwarf.
Since you do not believe in God, how did the laws of nature come into being? There are laws of gravity, inertia, and energy, to name a few. How do you decide what is right and wrong?? Let me show you what happens when God is taken out of a few things.
When prayer and God was taken out of this countries schools, sexually transmitted diseases rose 385%. Divorce rates almost doubled. Violent crime rose 995%. Birth rates for unwed mothers rose 100%. Teen suicide rates have more than tripled. SAT scores for schools had to be lowered for “dumber students.” These are just a few things that have happened when God is not recognized for who He is. “the fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” Psalms 14:1
Yours in prayer,
Ignorance
Note: Edited formatting for readability, but didn’t change the content –arensb
Sorry about the way the words went over the page. I did it in Microsoft Word and didn’t realize it would make a mess of things
Jake,
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? I ask only because I now shudder to think what I’m going to find on my genitals now.
Arensb, I will not be visiting your blog no more because of some comments posted by other bloggers. Praying for you.
Joanne,
Odd, but at the same time not unexpected, that you appear to have turned a blind eye to the purile statement from one who shared your viewpoint, only expressing offense after someone trolled the troll. As an evangelical, you fail at life.
Fez,
Joanne merely used those comments as excuse to gracefully get out of an argument that quickly was begining to read like a transcript of Hovind’s presentations. Maybe Joanne realized how much like Hovind she sounded like and couldn’t think of any other way to rectify the situation.
And who says YECs lack intelligence? Joanne is close to refuting that assertion. Bravo!
The courts in this case against Mr. Hovind were pressured by OUTSIDE influnces!!! I have said for years…people want to shut Mr. Hovind up! Kent is a man who IS used mightly by GOD! AND WILL countinue to be used by GOD! Go ahead and rejoice that he is going to prison for 10 years…that WILL NOT change the truth of what he teaches! REMEMBER, there is a Heaven and a Hell, it is YOUR choice where you will end up! Kent will come out a much better man! If that is possible.
This at least is likely – he really has nowhere to go but up at this point. But while you’re singing the praises of Mr. Hovind, consider how he has used you over the years prior to his arrest and conviction.
This also is likely – it was bullshit when he started, it’s bullshit now, and in 10 years when he walks the other way through the prison gates, it will still be (albeit well-aged) bullshit.
Just prove evolution.