Jo Hovind Update
Kent Hovind’s weblog, normally devoted to imaginary conversations, now has a bit of news: Kent’s wife Jo was sentenced at the same time as her husband, to a year and a day. Her sentence was stayed pending the outcome of the appeals. Well, the appeal has gone nowhere, so she is now in prison in Marianna, FL. At the minimum-security satellite camp of FCI Marianna, to be more exact.
The bastards! Persecuting that poor Godly woman! Oh, the humanity![/driveby_troll]
(Only a year? She wasn’t just as up to her neck in the sleaze as he was?)
Do you think the Hovinds will turn to Christ in prison like Chuck Colson, and get a reprieve?
Eamon Knight:
IIRC she was seen more as a naive accomplice, while Kent was the ringleader. Hence the disparity in sentences.
John Wilkins:
I thought turning to Christ was what got them into this mess to begin with.
Jo Hovind was largely influenced by her husband. Baptist women are taught to be submissive to their husbands. That’s all fine. But in this, she would have been wiser not to be. She should have followed Jesus when He said; “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” Kent Hovind was playing with fire when he decided to be a tax protester and go against the Federal Govt. They usually win. Now, unfortunately, he is a modern day John Bunyan…..except that Bunyan’s protest was scriptural. Dr. Hovind messed up. I wonder if he could turn back time, he would do things differently. He once quoted the Biblical David in one of his seminars. When David was to go out to fight the giant, his own fellow army comrades said; “are ya crazy?’ David said; “Is there not a cause?” WHAT was Hovind’s cause in this? Was he called by God to preach the gospel and refute the lies of evolution to strengthen our faith in the truth of the Bible or was he called to fight the big, bad govt. He really just lost his way. He didn’t stay focused. This is SUCH a shame. Not only did the big, bad govt win, thereby shutting him up, but they ruined his life, his wife’s life, his family, his ministry, his testimony, his credibility as a creationist, and a man of God, and they cheated us out of a wonderful preacher. I love Kent Hovind and I always will. His ministry has meant more to me than even I will ever know. I hate that this happened to him. But this was a terrible mistake on his part. He should have known that only people like Tim Geithner and Tom Daschle can get away with tax evasion.
Judy said:
Wait, I’m confused. The purpose of the Gospels was to refute evolution?
What a bunch of guilt ridden fags.
Which one of you has NOT deliberatly refused to pay taxes? EVERY DAMNED ONE OF YOU IS GUILTY!
Have you ever paid some one to do something? Did you pay the taxes too? How about the kid who mowed your lawn? Or your children for doing dishes, or some who did an errand for you?
It’s all LABOR, thus it’s ALL TAXABLE!!!
Let him who is innocent cast the first stone…. You are all fools according to the law…
You have to go out of your way to assult some guy who is trying to show you FREELY the way to peace with in your own minds and hearts.
But no, you are to lame to even accept a challenge to look in the bible, in any other way than a verse here and verse there, you do not take full books, you only take out of context, and you have done the very same with Hovinds words, but then even far more ingnorantly you add your own in AFTER the fact as if your carrying on some sort of conversation, sort of like a crying faggot would as he walks away snibbling.
You people have some issues, and you aren’t doing anything productive.
If you need a computer go to a church and ask for one, Christians are far more friendly than you, and forgiving too. Maybe you should learn from them something about REAL life.
You really do need to stop going to the library and spending all your time there writing your false complaints about Kent Hovind, hogging their computers so others can’t find the real research their after. Your time would be much better spent looking for a job, and being part of a church to learn compassion, forgivness, and understanding.
After all, the way things are going the choice is almost over, muslims will guarentee that if you don’t bow down to their false god of perversion, murder, theft, molestation and hate, you get to loose your head…
Study the Quran, this site is fast and easy… You don’t even have to read, you can listen to it in mp3 format in a couple hours time.
http://www.prophetofdoom.net
Non-believers are the first enemy of islam and the biggest threat, Christians arethe very leaste of their fears, they think Christians are easy to deal with, so they will be last to be killed.
Isn’t it nice to know you have to BELIEVE in God to even think about being ATHEIST, or some sort of NON-believer, and to be AGNOSTIC you have to admit that your STUPID, AGNOSTIC means “KNOWS NOTHING”, ATHEIST means “YOU DON’T FOLLOW GOD”….
Atheist comes from the word THEIST, the “A” at the beginning REVERSES the meaning, don’t be so stupid that you think it’s the other way around dumb ass.
To be A-THEIST you must FULLY ACCEPT THEIST, because you can’t have the reverse of somthing unless that somthing TRUELY EXISTS FIRST!….
Put that in your faggot sucking pipe and smoke it you fudge packer…
I died 3 times, tried out my own casket too, and I have returned. I know death, I know hell, I know the truth.
Ejoy your guilt…. You earned it….
“truth” wrote:
So says the person who just wrote 500 words to display his homophobia, ignorance, and possible psychological condition to the world.
You owe me a new irony-meter. Thanks for the chuckle, though.
truth ejaculated:
[blather]
Wow, where to start. Let’s see…
This from the fucking twatwaffle that just pounded out a 600 word scree on some random blog.
HOMO ALERT! HOMO ALERT! THIS GUY IS A BONE-SMUGGLER!!!
In all seriousness, the last pussy you saw had to have been your mom’s as she shot you out of her disease ridden crotch. Last time you ever saw your mom too. Probably explains your guilt ridden closet existence. I’d suggest you go find yourself a hooker to take care of your obvious problem but there are some people nobody would fuck for any amount of money. Such as you.
Thanks for the opportunity to exercise my obscenity gland you shiteating guttercunt!
Fez:
Dude, do you eat pussy with that mouth?
Free Kent Hovind! Please sign this petition, we have over 7,000 signatures so far!
Keep sending him your support and let God Bless him and his family through these hard times. Let’s not let the government try to shut him up, let’s stand for God and the good fight! Long live Kent Hovind!!
http colon slash slash freehovind dot com slash index
http colon slash slash www dot drdino dot com/
[Edited so as not to bump up the Google page rank of the sites the Hovind-spammer is promoting. — arensb]
Priceless.
7000 signatures huh? I bet someone’s hand is really tired right about now.
That is just adorable.
Are you also going to stand in front of SEC headquarters and ask people to sign your petition to have Bernie Madoff pardoned?
Also, Kent Hovind was sentenced two years ago. 7000 petition signatures in that time doesn’t qualify as a groundswell of support. More like a bump in the rug.
I can tell by your post how friendly xians truly are.
Let’s rephrase this…
To be ANTI-EVOLUTIONIST you must FULLY ACCEPT EVOLUTION, because you can’t have the reverse of something unless that something TRULY EXISTS FIRST!…
YES I FIXED YOUR ATROCIOUS SPELLING MISTAKES….
It’s funny how some xians make the claim that they know so much more than atheists, yet cannot seem to spell the simplest of words correctly.
I can’t believe how much time is wasted on someone who is generally thought of as being a hoax. Don’t you people realize that the more you hate on people like Kent Hovind the more credibility you give them. Personally I think it is sad that Mr. Hovind is in this situation, as I would think it sad that an evolutionist/atheist would do something similar. As a Christian I can’t condone any actions that would go against God’s will. I have thought hard and long about the situation Mr. Hovind is in and I have to say that it is possible that he is being punished by God for failing. Don’t get me wrong I look forward to his release. But I look forward more to what he has learned from all of this. Many times when I think of this situation I am pushed into examining myself and realize that I must also watch my P’s and Q’s when I profess my faith to others. I would like to apologize to all of you at this board (even though this is my first and probably only post here) for ever misrepresenting the God and Savior I so love and believe in.
I wish the non-believers out there could truly know the wonderful things that my God has to offer in this life. Some of you may never believe or understand what it is that most Christians believe. I get it. I really do. I hope that at least you will not judge God based on the failings of His followers. We do not believe in a perfect God because we are perfect. We believe in a perfect God because we are not perfect. We rely on a Perfect God because we cannot rely on mankind. We doubt the wisdom of the science surrounding evolution because of our faith in a perfect God. You may say that it is absurd to rely on ancient texts when you believe the evidence shows otherwise. That is fine. But let us deal with it on our own. If what you say is true, (about evolution) then our faith is vain and pointless and will not hold up as more and more evidence is found. If you don’t like how we reconcile the science we know with our faith then don’t listen. Many Christians don’t listen to people like Dawkins, Shermer, and others simply because they have such disdain for our faith. It’s almost like they are on a jihad of their own which causes a loss of credibility on their part as well. It’s no wonder people like Hovind and Ham and others call evolution a religion. Step back and take a look at how both are defended. There are many similarities. (an honest objective look at both in comparison)
I am a Christian. I am a Christian because I am a sinner not because I am perfect. I tell others because any honest person knows they have broken the law written in their hearts. If you are perfect then you are in no need of a savior. No one ever said you have to believe. You are more than welcome to pay for your own sins. Just so you know, when you change your mind. Jesus already did.
Chad Kennow…go ahead google it.
Flabberghasted said:
Is this your way of admitting that your arguments are only defensible in an echo chamber or are you prejudging the reaction you’ll receive?
No, you are a Christian because you follow Christ. Most atheists don’t pretend to be perfect but we also don’t believe we are sinners destined for hell. First to believe in hell (the Xian hell) you have to believe in the Xian god. Secondly to be a sinner you have to have sinned against something. If you don’t believe in a god to sin against you can’t be a sinner. Now before you start the most cliched lined about atheists, we do not disbelieve in a god just because we want to do whatever we want and not worry about the consequences. Most atheists know the difference between right & wrong. It’s wrong to steal, kill, rape, etc etc… However, atheists don’t believe that just because we lied (or whatever) and didn’t ask forgiveness from some imaginary being from above that we should be condemned to eternal suffering.
So you ask why do we do things that are right and avoid things that are wrong? Maybe because it’s better for everyone if we don’t rape, steal and kill our way through life. It’s it that hard to consider that maybe I don’t rape my next door neighbor because I fear eternal punishment but because I not only fear punishment in this life but I can imagine myself being violated and don’t want to impose that on anyone if I can help it?
Flabberghasted said:
No I just meant that because this is a rather unknown cite that I happened to stumble across while surfing it would probably be my only time contributing to the cite. and also incinuating that if you wanted to respond and I happen to not be here you could always google me and find out my email address. My intention really wasn’t to convert but to try to show you that just because this guy claims Christianity doesn’t mean he is perfect and your judgmental attitudes are even harsher than the most staunch and judgmental “christians” in our day.
I find it interesting that you feel qualified enough to tell me exactly why I am a Christian. That would be like me saying, “You’re an athiest because you are retarded.” Which I am sure is not true. I never said that athiest pretend to be perfect. And just because some people of a different belief system as yours do have “heart” issues. Does not give anyone else the excuse to lambast them when they themselves are prideful and arrogent. (Yes you). I don’t care that you don’t believe in heaven or hell. And it doesn’t bother me that you believe that believing in any God is just as ridiculous as believing in the FSM. You can believe in whatever you want. You act like we as believers hate you for not believing. When on the contrary we feel sorry for you and we are saddened by your choice. You come on here bashing believers because we fall short of what God expects of us. And then you get your panties in a bind when someone actually calls you out on something.
I don’t know what you “New-Atheists” want from us Christians. We only want to help save you from something we believe exists and is real. And you athiests think we are all cruel, judgmental, hypocrites. Well so be it. I pity you for having such an attitude. All I know as that even from a purely secular and athiestic standpoint…you should be glad there is the Christian religion as it may be the only thing keeping some from killing all the bigotted athiests in this world. So careful what you wish for. There may be some young Christian teen out there that in you arrogance you cause to stumble, and turns and starts shooting everyone. I guess its your lesson to learn to leave well enough alone. If you don’t care to hear about our God and Christ, then say politely, “No Thank you!” but don’t come on websites trying to tear down a whole religion based on the actions of one of it’s so-called followers.
And by the way, I did not ask “why do we do things that are right and avoid things that are wrong?”, you assumed I don’t realized the take most athiests have on morality.
Flabberghasted:
You’re right. I can’t imagine why someone might think that. Oh, wait. Maybe the “You are not alone” billboard that was taken down due to threats may have had something to do with it. Or the one that was vandalized. Or the woman who got fired for being an atheist. Or Paul Mirecki, who got beat up for saying mean things about fundamentalists. Or when the pope says that atheists don’t respect the environment. Or any number of similar incidents.
Actually, I never chose not to believe in gods, any more than I chose to be heterosexual or right-handed. The only choices I’ve made were to stop lying to myself about my beliefs, and whether I was going to pretend to be someone I’m not.
Nor am I alone in this, by any means. In fact, my deconversion was fairly typical, as far as I can tell.
Then demonstrate that this “something” (I assume you mean the eternity of torture that your god set up) exists, and is really something to worry about.
I assume that you don’t lie awake at night wondering what’ll happen when you die and Osiris weighs your heart against a feather. Or whether you’ve desired too much and are destined to be reincarnated as a beetle or something. Or whether Odin let you into Asgard. So why should I worry about your religion’s torture chamber when, as far as I can tell, it’s just as mythical as all the other fates I just listed?
Secondly, it would be nice if, instead to complaining to atheists, you guys could police yourselves a little better.
I realize that you personally didn’t beat up Mirecki, and neither did anyone in your congregation. You didn’t tell Africans that condoms help spread AIDS. You didn’t vandalize those billboards, or fire anyone for their lack of belief. You didn’t kill your daughter by praying over her instead of taking her to the hospital. But you walk under the same banner, Christianity, as the ones who did.
When someone like Kent Hovind says something stupid, or when Answers in Genesis publishes an article that says that it’s not okay to lie to save a Jew from being killed by Nazis, you guys would call them on it. Explain publicly why they’re wrong. Make them embarrassed to hold such ridiculous opinions.
But basically, you could try realizing that atheists are just people like everyone else.
I do realize that athiests are just people like the rest of us and those incidences you mentioned are tragic. But under the same banner of atheism many other atrocities have been commited. Should I task you with policing all athiests. I think not. I just wish atheists would judge the religion based on it’s own claims rather than the claims of those who claim they follow the religion.
If an atheist were to say that we evolved from rocks should I assume that this is what it means to be an Athiest. Likely not. But you jump on Christians for not reading and understanding every tenant of science and evolution but most athiest refuse to take the time to actually read and understand what it is we believe. Talk about hypocrisy. Atheists constantly try to use the Bible to prove their false assumptions about the religion and when people like Kent Hovind do the same to science (Yes there are times he is mistaken) you guys freak out and act like he’s breaking some law that says that, that tactic can only be used by athiest against religion. Please!
I believe it was C.S. Lewis who said that, “People who can’t understand books written for adults, shouldn’t talk about them.” So true. Personally I love talking about the Creation v. Evolution debate. I don’t claim to understand it all but I try to keep an open mind about it. Personally I just find creation to be much more believable. But if Evolution be true and I am wrong…my bad. At least I know I am not being told to kill anyone for not believing. I am only told to tell others about it. If you don’t believe it, That is up to you. That’s all i’m trying to say.
Flabberghasted:
(First of all, some administrivia: your comment got dumped in the moderator queue, rather than being automatically approved. I think my spam filter thinks that since you’ve been commenting a lot, and since you only started recently, that you’re a spammer. If your next comment doesn’t make it through, it probably got dumped into the spam bucket. Sorry about that.)
What exactly is the difference? And how can I figure out what the claims of Christianity are, when Christians themselves don’t agree among themselves? I’ve met people who claim that Jesus is the same person as YHWH, and people who say he isn’t. I’ve met people who claim that the Bible is the literal word of God, and others who say it’s a human construct. Christians who say homosexuality is an abomination, and others who don’t have a problem with it. Christians who claim there’s a hell, and others who claim there isn’t.
How can I figure out objectively who’s right and who’s wrong?
As for the Bible, well, Catholics, Protestants and Eastern Orthodox disagree on which books comprise it (to say nothing of the Mormons.) Again, how can I figure out objectively whether, say, the books of Tobias or Ecclesiasticus are divinely inspired or not?
At any rate, I gather the gist of it is that there’s a Middle-Eastern tribal god who hates shellfish, handed down a bunch of laws (some sensible, some barbaric, some absurd), and who had a son (who may or may not be himself). That if you do the Wrong Things, then when you die, you’ll be tortured forever (unless that part is metaphorical or something), whereas if you do the Right Things, then… um, you won’t get tortured, I guess. He also said that the world was going to end about 2000 years ago.
What the Right Things and Wrong Things are isn’t quite clear. There’s John 3:18, which says all I need to do is believe in Jesus, and Matthew 16:27, which says that everyone will be rewarded according to what they do, to pick just one example. It’s also not clear whether it’s necessary to keep all the Old Testament laws like not eating pork and stoning witches, or not.
Call me crazy, but it seems more plausible to me that there’s a space ship behind a comet. At least I know that comets exist.
I understand your frustrations. I do. But those are all great questions that I also had to understand too. Some I do not have answers to yet but I know that the more I study the more I understand. I learned a long time ago to not take the words of man and confuse them with the words of God. I really hope you find those answers and I would love to discuss them with you personally if you are truly wanting to know. email me at ckennow@live.com if you are interested and we can definatly take a look at them one at a time. I look forward to it. Who knows we both might actually learn something. On any note I appreciate the discussion here and I hope I haven’t dicouraged anyone further from trying to understand the true Christian belief system. Toodles.
Flabberghasted Says:
Why not discuss them here, where you broached the topic, rather than taking this offline to a private discussion?
Hell, my questions were pretty elementary, and Christians have had 2000 years to figure out the answers. So why not just post the link to the FAQ?
arensb Says:
In this context would that be “Frequently Avoided Questions”?
no i figured since my comments were being blocked by spamguard I figured it would be easier. I was not avoiding them but rather asking you to discuss them more directly. Unless you feel uncomfortable with that.
How is my definition anywhere related to your comparison? Yours is an attack, mine is the dictionary definition of what a Xian is. Here are the first three meanings of the word Christian.
# Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
# Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
# Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Also is it hard to believe that perhaps some Atheists use to be Xians and know what it means to be one?
Maybe you don’t really understand what those words mean? I don’t mean that in a condescending way. It just would seem to be you that is making claims that you know all and that what you present is undeniable. That seems much more prideful and arrogant than what I have said. You seem to be so sure that you know every is a sinner and that when we die we will have to pay for this sins somehow.
I don’t expect you to policy every Xian in the world, but it would show some intelligence to sort out the charlatans from the genuine believer. Kent Hovind is a fraud no matter how you look at it. He wants money and he doesn’t care how often he has to lie and cheat and steal to get it. He’s a man (human) just like anyone else in this country and he is subject to the same laws that each and everyone of us are subject to. Would it be ok for him to murder someone because he is not a citizen??? Of course not and that means he is also subject to the laws of taxation. It’s amazing how many people will stand up for the man who clearly can only put on a good comedy routine, but provide us with virtually nothing of substance.
Almost seems like you are trying to hide. 🙂
I have a question for you Flabberghasted. Is it a sin to lie? What about lying to protect someone’s life? To protect someone’s feelings? Is it a sin to kill? Should we have left the Nazi’s to roam all over Europe and Asia because we couldn’t kill any of them? What part of yourself tells you that it’s ok to sometimes to do those things the ten commandments otherwise tells you not to do? Maybe it’s the same thing that tells you not to rape and not to stone witches to death? Maybe that moral compass we all have inside ourselves that we have evolved over the years of working together in packs and herds. Maybe instead of sinning against a god, we sin against each other and instead of worrying about eternal consequences we should be more worried about how are actions or inaction will affect us today and tomorrow?
The offer still stands but I can’t be expected to hold a discussion when I can make only one response per day and it takes 24 hours for my posts to be viewed by anyone.
Why not? That’s what I do.
What? Another creationist finds a way to skirt a debate?
you have my email address. You wanna talk, email me. And before you try and make me out to be some kind of coward… you better check yourself.
I did not skirt the debate I am still waiting for an email from any of you who would like to discuss I would most definitly post the results of the “debate”/discussion here when finished but it is rather difficult to hold a conversation with the spam filter set so high. my email is posted I am willing to discuss but skirting a “debate” as you call it seems to be on you since no one has contacted me.
How incredibly rude. Do you often wander into parties and invite all of the guests away to do something else?
Flabbherghasted:
For one thing, I finally found how to whitelist your IP address after your last reply, and you may have noticed that your comment went through automatically, without my having to fish it out of the spam bucket.
For another, I’m open to debate, but only in public. I want your arguments (and mine) out in the open where everyone can see them. So no, email doesn’t work as a medium for me.
Well I thank you for that arensb perhaps now I can answer some questions. Lets take them one at a time here. Go ahead with question #1.
I quote myself, there is a question (multi-part).
I remember having to tackle this question myself. Many Christians and “Denominations of Christianity”(excuse the obvious hypocrisy of that descriptive term) are very dogmatic about lying. Never considering the obvious problems with such a dogmatic position on “lying as a sin”. Let us remember that to find what seems like a contradiction without considering the whole of God’s Word is not worth “throwing out the baby with the bathwater”. Let’s see what the scriptures do say on the matter:
Here we see Paul the Apostle comanding Christians to not lie to Christians. We cannot take this to mean do not lie to absolutely anyone however when considering all things it would most likely be in our best interest to always tell the truth. This is just common sense. But what about those situations that come up and you are faced with a “dilemma” if you will. The one you mentioned is quite honestly the one that brings about such a dilemma.
Suprisingly this is actually tackled in the NT Scriptures and many overlook it as they cannot possibly harmonize it with their dogmatic approach to this issue. Let us look at what God’s Word says about extenuating circumstances and the moral dilemma:
ref. Joshua 2
So you see, the Lord is not without understanding of circumstantial issues. I beg you to consider that what man teaches and what God teaches can sometimes be completely different things.
Another thing the Lord knows is that we are weak and imperfect and we all fall short A LOT! Another seeming contradiction comes when God says that David is a “Man after God’s own heart.”Acts 13:22 SERIOUSLY!? Surely a God so righteous would have nothing to do with a heathenistic Murdering, Lying, Stealing, Adulterer, etc etc.!!! Ah, but we must remember that what God admired so much about David was his repentant and devoted heart. Read Paul’s words in Romans 7:13-25. Was David perfect…NOPE! But his heart was always willing. This harmonizes with what Jesus said in the Garden of Gethsemane…”The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Does this excuse our sin? No but it allows God to work with us and build us up to be better people and to be able to serve Him more fully.
What about protecting someones feelings. I discussed this with my wife (at the time my fiance) at length because I only wanted to have to say it once. I am not the most P.C. person in the world but I try not to be rude. If you ask me how something looks on you, you are barking up the wrong tree. And, don’t ask me if you look fat either, cuz if you think you look fat I am going to tell you that if it bothers you then do something about it. 😉 People often use the “What about little white lies?” accusation to say that anyone who says that lying is sin is nothing but a hypocrite. I would contend though that “little white lies” can usually be easily avoided with some thought, creativity and politeness. Case in point:
The husband didn’t lie and the wife feels good about herself. That works sometimes but I am sure with some creativity you can think of other ways to keep your relationships “flying dishes” free. In my house my wife knows not to ask such silly questions though.
So you see that the issue of lying as a sin being a contradiction and “proof” of the bible’s non-inerrancy or to support a view of God as an uncaring unforgiving hate-monger whose rules are above common sense and regard for the human condition is not really an issue at all when one declines to believe the false dogmatic doctrine of “lying is a sin under any circumstance”
That tackles the lying question now on to the rest of your questions.
I will continue with my next post as my 2 year old just woke up. be back later.
I sure hope not! I love beef and burgers and steak and all kinds of things made from animals. Not to mention that the Lord o’kayed killing of animals and sacrificing numerous animals (sorry PETA) in the OT. He also condoned killing during wartime. Read Ecclesiastes 3 for a run down of the Lord’s feelings on the timeliness of certain matters that would typically be considered anathema.
I do understand that many people confuse killing with murder. This is a mistake. Murder is definitaly a sin no matter what but killing on the other hand can mean a lot of things and can really fall under circumstantial jurisdiction.
I am sure you understand that the rules are much different for nations than they are for individuals. The Lord definately doesn’t condone vigilanteism. Read Romans 13:
I’m not sure what your accusing me of here. As far as I know we are not bound by the old law anymore. Col. 2:13-23
You say “evolved” God says:
I half agree with your conclusion. I do believe we can sin against one another which is horrible enough but your rejection of God in your conclusion is one I must kindly disagree with. A little effort and a bit of thinking before tossing it all out should always be encouraged when searching for God and Truth. And besides if there were no eternal consequences and I only had to worry about what people could do to me I probably would have lost it and gone homicidal a long time ago. 😉 It’s a tough world out there. “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”
Flabberghasted:
It’s funny you should say this, because you built your argument by quoting entirely from people who aren’t God:
Colossians: allegedly written by Paul, someone who wasn’t God. In this passage, as far as I can tell, he’s speaking for himself, not quoting YHWH or Jesus. And besides, there’s good evidence to suggest that Colossians is a forgery.
Hebrews: The author is unknown, but since the book begins by saying that “In the past God spoke to our forefathers”, I think it’s safe to say that the author isn’t God.
James: He doesn’t claim to be God. Heck, he doesn’t even claim to be James the brother of Jesus.
Acts: Luke may have hung around with Jesus, but he wasn’t Jesus. Or God.
Ditto Romans: Paul wasn’t God.
Contrast that with this article at Answers in Genesis, which argues that if you were hiding Jews in Nazi Germany, and Nazis came over and asked if you’d seen any Jews, you shouldn’t lie to them.
So what it looks like to me is that you figured out on your own that sometimes it’s okay to lie, and that you’ve dipped into the Big Book of Multiple Choice to find passages that support your views. As it turns out, your views are shared by other humans, but not by YHWH or Jesus (or else you’d have cited them).
In short, your morals are better than God’s. But then again, most people’s are.
Again, you cite from a guy pretending to be a guy who wasn’t Jesus. I’d have gone with The Big Dog himself, in Matthew 5:18:
I also find it surprising that someone who appears to be an American would quote Romans 13: surely King George III was appointed by God, and the American revolution was an act of rebellion against God.
I hope that smiley means you’re kidding. Because if the only thing standing in the way of you going postal is a belief that your god tortures people after they die, then for the sake of everyone around you, I want your ass in church every day, and twice on Sunday.
I’ll point out, however, that there are millions of us who don’t think anyone will be punished after they die, but we manage to be good people anyway. Or at least no worse than anyone else. Do you really want to say that your moral compass is inferior to mine?
Arensb:
Thank you for responding. I know you do not believe that those who wrote the NT were inspired by God through the Holy Spirit to write the things they did, but you are questioning Christianity which gets it faith from those things written based on a belief that they are the words of God Himself. So the argument is moot. the questions were directed towards me as to whether or not in the Christian religion certain things are sinful or not. I was only submitting a more logical answer using the actual teachings in the NT. With that said I believe that:
By the way the reason I didn’t use Matthew 5:18 is because it doesn’t apply really. In the latter part of that verse he mentions the condition in which the Law will cease. “until everything is accomplished.” He said on the cross, “It is finished.” I believe this is what he was speaking of. Fullfilling the Law and the Prophets.
The destruction of the law was inevitable and intended…In referring to the priesthood one can find this little gem in Hebrews 7:
a reading of that whole dissertation in Hebrews is good to get the full point of what is going on here.
I read that article at AIG when it was first posted up here to attack the organization. I thought it was well put. I think you may be misunderstanding the point that was trying to be made but I don’t fully agree with their conclusion. Besides AIG is not the Word of God but I do like to read their material and watch their videos. Critically of course. But not discounting everything they say just because I disagree with a few of their conclusions. I actually like AIG better than Hovinds work simply because they don’t come off quite as arrogant as Hovind can. But Hovind is fun to watch cuz he can sometimes give as good as he gets. You have to admit he’s at least a great motivational speaker.
Can you find it somewhere inside yourself to realize that I actually resent this statement and why some may think people like yourself come off as arrogant and proud? As for that last statement I hope I’ve clarified my position on what I believe about what are and are not the Words of God. We could go into a discussion about why I believe that the Bible in it’s purest form is the Word of God but that’s up to you.
Contrary to popular belief not all Americans believe America is above reproach. I struggled with the point you made here for quite sometime. I sometimes still do but ultimately I know that God raises up nations and also destroys them. And he sometimes uses other nations to do it. Sometimes even using unrighteous nations. I also struggled with the dilemma of the Civil War as well when you had Christian brothers fighting and killing other Christian brothers. Was that right or should slavery been allowed to continue. I trust God more knowing the outcome of that war being as the North/Union won and slavery was abolished but I am not God so I don’t pretend to know every purpose for what He allows and encourages behind the scenes. I just know what I need to do to get to heaven and that’s what I strive to do.
I literaly laughed out loud at this one. Funny thing is, is that I don’t go to “church” at least I haven’t for some time now. In the last few years after studying profusely I have begun to see that Modern Christianity is no poster-child for the “religion” (I don’t like that word…but whatever). I think the modern-day church(es) has far strayed from the simple message and structure preached in the first century. I could go on for days about this but I will spare you for now.
Perhaps….Perhaps not…I don’t think I am qualified to judge that. At the most I can say is that it may be at least equal
I hope I at least addressed the questions posed by menes777 well. I have to get to sleep now or I’m gonna have a rough day tmro. I look forward to the continued discussion.
Flabberghasted:
And what led you to this conclusion? Or is this an unfounded assumption?
Oh, bullshit. It says right there in the verse, “until heaven and earth disappear”. You don’t want there to be any errors in the Bible, so you’re ignoring the plain meaning of the text to make it fit what you want it to say.
I called the Bible the Big Book of Multiple Choice because it can be, and has been, used to support any point of view. Slavery? Yes. Abolition? Yes. Pro-gay-rights? Sure. Anti-gay-right? No problem. Pro-abortion? Yup. Anti-abortion? You got it. Pro-death-penalty? Anti-death-penalty? Sure thing.
Speaking of which, New Scientist has an interesting article on the subject: researchers asked what they thought God’s views on various topics were, and what their own opinion was. They were then asked to do things like prepare a speech arguing the opposite of their position. When they were interviewed again afterwards, it turned out that God’s opinion had shifted.
As for my bit about “but not by YHWH or Jesus (or else you’d have cited them)”, you’re the one who said that it’s important to distinguish between what God says and what people say. So even if you think the entire Bible is divinely inspired, given a choice between a direct quote from YHWH or Jesus, and a letter by Paul, surely the former carries more weight.
Yeah, I know. I see them all the time, arguing that 9/11 or Katrina was God’s punishment for treating gays as human beings, or tolerating the existence of other religions, or allowing women to wear pants, or whtever.
Given that the Bible never once says that slavery is bad (unless you resort to generalities like Galatians 3:28), it’s not at all clear that the god of the Bible would have had a problem with the south winning the Civil War.
Actually, I suspect he would’ve had a problem either way, since both countries were democracies, and as far as I’m aware, the Bible considers monarchy the best form of government.
You might find Rev. Thornton Stringfellow’s defense of slavery interesting: as far as I can tell, he’s doing the same thing as you are: trying to figure out what God wants. But he comes to conclusions that I’m sure you find abhorrent, even though Stringfellow has ample scriptural justification.
But I think that just confirms that your morals are better than God’s.
Well, sure. Early Christians were convinced that Jesus was going to come back Real Soon Now, so they didn’t set up hierarchies or otherwise plan for the long haul because there wan’t going to be a long haul. Once it became clear that Jesus wasn’t coming back any time soon, it became necessary to make some changes.
But hey, if you want to sell all your possessions (Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33), or stop contributing to your 401(k) (Matthew 6:25-34, or give to everyone who asks of you (Luke 6:30), and the like, knock yourself out.
I guess you’d have to live my life or at least be willing to walk a mile in my shoes.
Ouch! looks like I struck a nerve. I guess it really depends on your eschatology. Personally I am closer to an “amillinialist”. but there are things about that general eschatology that I find hard to harmonize though they are few.
And if I had used a “direct” quote, you would have just pointed out that it was just hearsay. So I’m not sure what quotes would have actually convinced you. I do not deny that it takes faith to believe the Bible is completely divinely inspired but that is the nature of Faith if you will. I know this concept is not beyond you because any reasonable and honest athiest/evolutionist has to admit that there is a fair amount of faith involved in believing those theories and their assumptions.
I have heard these arguments too and those people’s OPINIONS should be kept to themselves. I don’t know why God allowed those things to happen. I could venture guesses but that is all they would be. I have my own issues to work out and can’t be troubled with things on such a large scale. I often say, “I am glad I’m not God.”
No I wouldn’t use a verse like that to defend against slavery in the bible. In fact I am pretty certain the only thing the Bible ever claims in regards to slavery is just that it acknowledges that it exists and how to deal with it when you are in such a situation.
…is just one example. This also applies even if you are paid or not. So I don’t know how anyone can say that God either approves of or condemns slavery according to the Bible.
I have learned over much study that the Bible is more about moderation than black or white. for instance eating is not sinful but gluttony is. Drinking is not sinful but drunkeness is. etc. etc. etc.
This makes me feel like I am wasting my time with you simply because no matter what I say you will just retort with “You say that and others says this.” I don’t personally care what others interpretation of the Bible is. I will consider what is said, see if it harmonizes with scripture and if it does sobeit if not, dismiss it. I hope I have proven that I believe that by having not quoted anything other than the Bible.
Sell all my possesions? I will if I percieve that my possessions are hindering me from following Christ. (Context) 401(k)? don’t have one. Give to everyone who asks of you? I do! and I don’t ask for anything in return either. These are all things that the modern church neglects and I believe should be encouraged always…and the like. 🙂
Flabberghasted:
No, I’m just calling bullshit where I see it.
True, but at least it’d be an Nth-degree report, rather than an N+1th-degree report.
And in your experience, is faith a reliable way of telling what’s true and what isn’t? Christians have faith that there’s one god and that his name is Jesus (or YHWH, or El, or whatever). Muslims have faith that Jesus was a prophet, not a god. Hindus have faith that there are hundreds of gods, and that you get reincarnated after you die. Pagans have faith that trees can talk.
Are all these things true as well? And if not, how can I tell which ones are true and which ones aren’t?
To answer your question of what would convince me: AIUI you think that there’s only one god. A Hindu believes that there are several. At least one of you is wrong. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that you’re wrong and that the Hindu is right. How would you be able to tell? What would convince you?
Again, bullshit. You’re revealing your ignorance of how science works, or how much people know.
Here, take a look at Berkeley’s evolution site (including the evidence section). And talkorigins.org’s 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution. Yeah, that one’s quite long, and I don’t expect you to read it all, but that’s because there’s a hell of a lot of evidence for evolution.
Or you could go down to your local library and borrow Richard Dawkins’s The Greatest Show on Earth, which was written specifically to address claims like yours.
Then again, maybe I’m misunderstanding you, and by “assumptions” you mean things like “gravity has existed at least as long as the earth has”, or “the rate at which radioactive cobalt decays was the same 380,000 years ago as it is today”. If so, then I hope you’ll admit that those are far smaller leaps of faith than believing that there was once this one guy who magically turned water into wine.
For another, scientists don’t like to take even such small leaps of faith. Case in point: my favorite supernova, SN1987A, provided an opportunity to test assumptions like those.
In short, “faith” is not something desirable. It’s something you resort to when you don’t have anything better. Like observable facts.
Why are you so sure that these are just opinions? Pat Robertson says God talks to him. How can you tell that he’s wrong? More importantly, how can I tell that he’s wrong?
You, Pat Robertson, Ken Ham, the pope, Rev. Barry Lynn, and others all study the Bible and come to vastly different conclusions about what it says. Why should I believe your interpretation, and not theirs?
Ah, so grasshoppers have four legs and bats are birds. Glad that’s cleared up. Must’ve been my lying eyes misleading me.
Okay, please give me $1000. When can I expect it?
Flabberghasted Says:
What do you consider/what does God consider Hovind’s failure to have been ?
I think the crux of the larger problem is contained within and expressed in this commentary of yours.
Yes
Well it would take some study and some thought some common sense and also some faith.
see above.
You sure like that word. Do they teach you that in evolutionary vernacular classes. What is the cost per credit? cuz I think you got ripped off. ;P
You assume I am willingly ignorant of the evolutionists claims. I assure you I am not. I don’t presume to understand it all but I have heard and considered enough of it to realize that it was…oh…how do you say…bull-…well you know.;)
Would it be safe to say that these writings would be the equivelant of me asking you to consider or read the Bible. Cuz that is what it seems like.
Ah the modern day evolutionists Prophet! Good luck with that. 😉
Turning water into wine is much more believable to me than believing that wonderfully “sound” Big Bang Theory. All things considered about that theory even taking into consideration the theories explored in quantum physics I believe that the BBT is about as ridiculous as the tv show named after it. I just have a hard time believing that different “rates” at which something is currently decaying can be proven that it has always decayed at that rate. To prove it we would have to have documentation of the decay rates all the way back to the beginning. I also think there is some great science showing that when taking a world wide flood into consideration can change a lot of these variables. And that is something we have documented. Discounting it would be just as ridiculous as discounting those things that have been documented otherwise.
I smell something.
So are you admiting that evolution IS a faith based religion? :O
Because they have no grounding in any biblical data or thought process. Is it possible? Maybe. But to state that it is fact you would have to be an unmistaken prophet of God. Which leads to the next point…
The fact that you think that any televangelist let alone just Pat Robertson speaks truth about any religion let alone Christianity shows your own ignorance. Pat Robertson is definitly certifiable in my opinion. According to Deut.18:20-22, 13:1-3, Isaiah 8:19-20; 2 Peter 1:19-21 Pat Robertsonn doesn’t pass the tests.
This makes me feel like I am wasting my time with you simply because no matter what I say you will just retort with “You say that and others says this.” I don’t personally care what others interpretation of the Bible is.
You shouldn’t!
Yes and two arms! Go figure.
I guess it depends on whose classification standards we’re using. Bats fly so I have no problem with this one. Careful on your presumptions there.
No problem. 🙂
Just remember that I wasn’t the one who said it.
Feel free to stop by anytime I will be glad to assist you with your needs with as much as I am able. you have my email address and I would be happy to meet at a neutral location. Well populated preferrably.
Fez:
I thought that was obvious, but I would venture it would have something to do with not paying taxes and not obeying the ordinances of man. God’s not too keen on making Him look bad to the authorities. I hope Mr. Hovind thinks long and hard about this.
I think your right. I just hope that more and more people start to think more before they speak on both sides, Including myself. I am learning and growing. Thanks for the post.
Okay, can you give some examples of things that were first discovered through faith, and later confirmed to be true? Be specific. Be sure to also address the large number of things that were believed on faith, and later shown not to be true (like the sun going around the earth).
Tell me: what would the Hindu have to do or show in order to convince you that you’re wrong, and that there are multiple gods? Again, be specific.
What’s the last book on evolution, written by an evolutionary biologist, that you’ve read?
If I were making the sorts of outlandish claims about the Bible that you’re making about evolution, you’d be entirely justified in telling me to read it, or at least the relevant passages.
It may surprise you to learn that earlier, I wrote several paragraphs explaining that you were misquoting Hebrews 7, but when I reread the chapter more carefully, I realized that it was in fact I who was mistaken.
Does that mean that you refuse to read Dawkins because he’s an advocate of evolution?
We’re talking about evolution, here, not cosmology. The fact that you think the Big Bang is somehow connected to evolution reveals just how woefully ignorant you are.
Seriously, dude. Go learn about evolution. What you’re doing is like me saying “The Bible only says Adam and Eve had three kids. So where did Jesus come from?” If you won’t read Dawkins because he’s one of those naughty atheists, then read Kenneth R. Miller, who’s a devout Catholic. Two books that leap to mind are Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul and Finding Darwin’s God.
Or if you don’t read Catholics either, try Francis Collins’s The Language of God. Collins, you may recall, is currently head of the NIH, former head of the Human Genome Project, and also an (annoyingly outspoken) evangelical Christian.
In the interest of full disclosure, I’ll admit that I haven’t read these books. But I’ve read enough of and about Miller and Collins to know that they know a hell of a lot more about the subject than you do, and should be able to set you straight on a number of things.
What you smell is me bending over backwards to try to extend the definition of “faith” to something that might conceivably apply to what scientists do.
Except that the Bible is chock-full of God smiting people, cities, and countries for their wickedness.
Okay, how about the Hyatt Dulles Garden Terrace (hotel bar), at 2300 Dulles Corner Blvd, Herndon, VA 20171, this coming Wednesday, Dec. 16, 2009 at 8:00 p.m.?
Flabberghasted Says:
If you’d read through the years of commentary on this site it should be pretty clear that there have been all number of “failures” attributed by self-identified religious supporters that have no bearing on reality so no, it’s not obvious at all.
From your comments here I do not believe you and I have the same concept of what the problem is.